Gesine Agena met with Theo Zwanziger to discuss the FIFA Women’s World Cup.
An interview between Gesine Agena, spokeswoman for Grüne Jugend, and Theo Zwanziger, DFB President, about the FIFA Women's World Cup, equality policy and why the DFB believes it has no need for a quota for women.
Gesine Agena: We'd like to conduct an interview with you on the subject of the FIFA Women's World Cup. We at Grüne Jugend naturally find the topic of women's football and, above all, the advancement of women important. We are committed to equal opportunities as a matter of principle and that is what we would like to focus on today for the most part.
Theo Zwanziger: I'm very pleased to hear that. After all, the Greens were opposed to organised sport and football for a long time. Now that they have finally discovered that this is of importance to society, they have since become my friends. First and foremost Claudia Roth, of course, the DFB's environmental officer.
Gesine Agena: You are someone who promotes the advancement of women's football. My first question to you is: are you also a fan?
Theo Zwanziger: Of course I'm a fan. To love football means being a football fan as well. This applies to the national teams: many fans feel a common bond and come closer together; it’s a matter of tradition and passion. I have the same intense passion for women's football. It’s publicly known that I have been a fan of Turbine Potsdam since 2004 when they played such fantastic football in Berlin's Olympic Stadium.
Gesine Agena: European champion Petra Landers once said that she was not so much the target of discrimination for being a woman footballer. It was instead Gero Bisanz, the first women's national coach, who had to endure quite a lot of prejudices. When did you out yourself as a fan? And what are you doing to combat discrimination in women's football?
Theo Zwanziger: I don't believe that discrimination exists in women's football any more. Times have changed. Women's football was banned by the DFB until 1973. That was a different era and, of course, there was an incredibly large number of prejudices then, especially in terms of how the role of women and men was perceived. As a result, some people believed it was necessary to say that certain sports, one of which was football, was something girls shouldn't engage in because they needed to be protected.
This protective instinct carried on to an absurd degree over time and men also increasingly contributed towards this. Gero Bisanz, a coach of very high repute, was exceptionally important at this time and he faced up to the issue in exercising his duties. He could also have coached men's teams, but he proved that young women can also play and we should also treat what they can do with great respect. An increasing number of men is very taken by how well women play the game and I'd say that today people recognise what women and girls have achieved in football.
Gesine Agena: How annoyed are you then at comments like the one uttered by Rudi Völler: Go and ref a women's game?
Theo Zwanziger: Quite honestly, Rudi Völler's comment was directed at the referee. And when it comes to referees, you really have to take into account the differences between men's and women's football. If refereeing a women's game, he would have an easier task because women play fairer because they treat each other with greater respect, because they don't engage in those rock-hard tackles, because there are no brutal fouls. So, in context, what he said is not really a form of discrimination but a comment on how much fairer women play the game. And that is how it is.
Gesine Agena: Why do you think it is that way?
Theo Zwanziger: I'm pretty certain it has something to do with the fact that women, as a rule, do not experience the same high levels of emotion that sometimes come to the fore when men play, and that they are a little more reserved. The men's game is faster. As a consequence, a lot more tackling takes place which leads to situations during a match which do not occur as frequently in the women’s game.
Gesine Agena: You now have a sustainability commission at the DFB, with Claudia Roth as its spokeswoman. The commission addresses the issue of environmental protection as well as anti-discrimination policy and culture. What significance does this sustainability commission have at the DFB?
Theo Zwanziger: We are, of course, a football association, a sports association. Our strength and main focus lies first and foremost in competition and everything to do with that. So, sustainability can only be practiced if you have a core business that is in high public demand. And for this reason, we have always made our core focus the development of young talents, both male and female, to ensure that our leagues are strong and our national teams are strong. But you also need to add value orientation, which involves us becoming an active, responsible association in society. Being a team sport, football first of all brings people together and does not alienate them. Any form of discrimination is foreign to the sport – racism, xenophobia, sexual orientation, of course, and all these things.
On top of this, we naturally place great importance on the environment and the climate and that is where our DFB environmental officer Claudia Roth comes in. Why? Because we want to show that children who enjoy playing here also want to live in an environment 40 or 50 years down the line that is just and responsible. So, we have combined all our concerns and issues into a so-called sustainability commission, which covers both activities geared to promoting integration and environmental campaigns. The third element is a matter of communicating appropriately, of course, and this is possible because of the high level of acceptance football enjoys or the very attractive nature of the game. Whenever we convey our messages, we of course have a great forum through which we can communicate them to the public, namely through our national teams.
Gesine Agena: My first big football match was Werder Bremen against a team ... I can't remember who they played against at all. But, I certainly recall Ailton playing and it was just before he asked to be transferred. When he got the ball, some people behind me stood up and shouted racist remarks. That really disturbed me a lot. And it got me thinking: are the kind of appeals that you have just talked about, I mean clips promoting integration, enough or isn't it perhaps necessary to initiate a code of conduct for those attending matches?
Theo Zwanziger: Clips and appeals alone are not enough of course. The right rules are also needed. But it's always important to see things in perspective: 80,000 matches are played in Germany every week. Of these, 99.9 percent are incident-free.
Gesine Agena: Last year, the men's World Cup took place. And walking through Berlin, for example, you see people all over the place cheering who have developed something like a common sense of belonging. On the other hand, studies, such as the one conducted by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, have shown that people are far more patriotic after football world cups and that this patriotism in part leads to intolerance against foreigners and their exclusion. What are your thoughts on this?
Theo Zwanziger: No-one can be in any way opposed to people having patriotic feelings. We are against nationalistic attitudes – that is the difference. Being proud of your country, on patriotic grounds, that is a good thing. I am proud of this country. But patriotism must not be allowed to descend into any form of degradation of others. Nationalism begins where you start to mock or show scorn for others.
Gesine Agena: Coming back to the advancement of women. We Greens are committed to seeing the establishment of a quota for women, especially on supervisory boards and management boards. How does the DFB view this? When will it introduce a quota for women?
Theo Zwanziger: If a development turns out not to be as just as it should be, then you indeed have to resort to regulations which enable a transition towards new opportunities. That might entail quotas. This is how I see things. Now, as far as football is concerned, some differences do apply, of course. There is no point in forming an administrative body or board on the basis of quotas when it is unable to perform its actual tasks and duties. The DFB has a million female members. A very large number, but in relation to our 6.7 million members, a little under 20 percent.
Gesine Agena: The quota for women isn't necessarily there to promote women's football but rather to give the DFB Presidium a feminine look...
Theo Zwanziger: We are a democratic association, and those running our organisation have come up through the traditional ranks that all functionaries have to. For this reason, my philosophy is not necessarily to start with the quota but to bring women into different fields through the sustainability commission for example. Through this approach we have already filled the posts of integration officer and environmental and climate officer with women. But we still need a little more time with this process because football has been a male domain for a long time and this is gradually changing. All the same, just under 40 percent of all full-time employees at the DFB in Frankfurt today are women.
Gesine Agena: You were awarded the Tolerantia Prize. Among other things, tolerance is about homosexual rights. On this issue, Philipp Lahm has advised footballers not to come out, at least not at the present time, while Oliver Bierhoff has said he wants to shield himself and his family from the notion that gays exist. This leads me to ask you whether this is a new type of tolerance: "Homosexuality is all well and good, but I don't want to have anything to do with it and there is no such thing in my family."
Theo Zwanziger: Coming out in men's football, in the professional game played at the highest level, needs to be looked at from two angles: firstly, there is reason to seriously doubt whether the percentage of gays in professional sports is really as high as is maintained. Unfortunately, it must be assumed that there are some budding footballers out there who decide against joining the professional ranks because they are worried about being outed, or can’t come to terms with constantly having to stay in the closet and therefore can’t perform to the levels that would take them to the pinnacle of the game.
Now, there is still a possibility that there are gays playing at the highest levels of the game. Why don’t they come out? I can only reiterate my belief that they should do so, but each individual needs to make that decision for themselves, because sexual orientation is initially a personal matter. But we absolutely stand by our tolerant stance, and I can tell you that there has been an incredibly large number of changes in the amateur sport.
I wouldn’t worry too much about Oliver Bierhoff or Jogi Löw, or anyone else for that matter. They are just as opposed to every form of discrimination as I am.
Gesine Agena: Don’t you think that we need to establish tolerance criteria or to launch a campaign promoting tolerance not just among spectators but, above all, also those who play at the highest levels of the game?
Theo Zwanziger: Insofar as they come from cultures that are not quite as advanced as we fortunately are, yes! And this should equally apply to the issue as to whether girls should play football. It is my belief that this has since become a matter of course in many areas but there are, of course, also people out there who come from a different background where the role that men and women play in society is still very pronounced. It all takes time, but if you’re gritty and consistent in tackling these issues then you’ll find that there are ways to make this contribution to, let’s say a humane, fair society.
Gesine Agena: You went on a tour of all the countries taking part in the upcoming FIFA Women’s World Cup. We’ve seen images from North Korea showing you arriving with the delegation, and with Steffi Jones and Claudia Roth. Don’t you ever have reservations and concerns about this? Because everything that’s broadcast in North Korea, all the images, are also used to serve the needs of the dictatorship. Don’t you see a certain danger of your becoming a pawn that can be used for the purposes of the regime?
Theo Zwanziger: The trip you mentioned was one of the most exciting we have undertaken and most definitely one not without its risks or criticisms. As part of her Welcome Tour, Steffi Jones had been asked to visit every country that qualified for the World Cup. When a country such as North Korea qualifies, you’re then confronted with the question of whether to visit every country or maybe to leave one out. We soon realised that we couldn’t overlook North Korea and that we had to do the entire Welcome Tour. I don’t want to create the impression that football is capable of being a matter of diplomacy, but I do believe that this is true: football can open doors which politics can’t readily open. And that’s why we travelled to North Korea together with political representatives, and, looking back, Claudia Roth and I weren’t unhappy about having done it.
Source: Grüne Jugend
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